Episode 199
Salt to the Land, Light to the Nations
In this episode of the Bible Bistro, Ryan and Brian return to their series on the Sermon on the Mount, focusing on Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 5:13–16 about being the “salt of the earth” and the “light of the world.” They explore how these familiar metaphors would have been understood in their original context, emphasizing that salt functioned primarily as a preservative — pointing to the believer’s role in resisting decay — while light represents revealing truth and drawing others toward God. Anchored by insights from Scot McKnight, the conversation reframes the Christian life as more than personal faith, highlighting a call to actively participate as agents of God’s redemption in the world. The discussion also wrestles with the tension of living distinctly without withdrawing from culture, warning against losing one’s “saltiness” by blending in with the surrounding world. Ultimately, the episode challenges listeners to see their faith as a fully integrated calling — one that shapes how they live, speak, and engage the world around them.
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:Welcome back to Ryan and Brian's Bible Bistro.
Speaker B:I'm Ryan and that's Brian and this is the Bible Bistro.
Speaker B:Welcome back, Brian.
Speaker A:Welcome back, Brian.
Speaker B:My gosh.
Speaker B:This is a podcast all about the Bible theology and all things related to the Christian faith.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B: the second quarter episode of: Speaker A:Every three months, whether you need it or not.
Speaker B:Every three months.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, you know, we said like every other week, but, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was symbolic.
Speaker A:Well, we're both, we're both in school.
Speaker A:You're, you're taking two classes and we've got lots going on.
Speaker A:So it's been good people, though, who, who are missing the, the Bible Bistro.
Speaker A:It gives us good incentive to want to get back involved and get going with it again.
Speaker B:So, yeah, we're definitely, I'm looking forward to a week from now.
Speaker B:I've got a large paper I've been working on and that's been okay.
Speaker B:It's been a treat.
Speaker A:Future episodes.
Speaker A:What I hear, when I hear you're
Speaker B:doing a paper, it's not that interesting, but maybe, maybe we'll do it.
Speaker B:Well, we're back.
Speaker B:Yes, we have heard from a couple folks and that's been good to hear.
Speaker B:And so, but we're gonna, we have taken the longest road through Matthew 5, 6 and 7 that you could possibly take.
Speaker B:So we're on the third episode of the Sermon on the Mount.
Speaker B:So, Bryan, tell me a little bit about what we, what we're going to chat about today.
Speaker A:Well, we're going to talk about basically, salt and light is the way that I kind of summarize this.
Speaker A:These are, you know, and I'm going to go back because it's been, it's been a while.
Speaker A:It's been a minute.
Speaker A:So, you know, one of the things about the Sermon on the Mount that I always like to say, is it some of the, probably the best known verses, some of the best known passages in all of the Bible are in this, in this, in this sermon.
Speaker A:People can quote this sometimes even if they don't even know too much else about the Bible.
Speaker A:But it's become so familiar to us.
Speaker A:I think we've missed some of how, what I would say, radical, that's not exactly the word I'm looking for.
Speaker A:But how it would have been, it would have been controversial when Jesus sang this in the first place to the people.
Speaker A:And I just think it's good for us to kind of go back and remember that, to be reminded that there's some pretty difficult Things here.
Speaker A:And I'll say something about that in a minute.
Speaker A:Again, just because it's been a while.
Speaker A:Just to reiterate, we did two episodes on the Beatitudes, and we talked about it.
Speaker A:It was kind of the idea of what does an ideal citizen of the kingdom of God look like?
Speaker A:That was what we're doing in the Beatitudes, in a way.
Speaker A:But there's a shift that took place in Matthew, chapter 5:11, and it moves from the third person into the second person.
Speaker A:So in the Beatitudes, it's blessed is the person who, you know, blessed is the one who mourns, or blessed is the one who.
Speaker A:Blessed are the peacemakers.
Speaker A:It's third person.
Speaker A:But then in chapter five, verse 11, after he talks about those who are persecuted, then he says, blessed are you.
Speaker A:And so there's a shift from third person into second person, where Jesus begins to directly address his followers and say, this is what you, as a citizen of the kingdom are to do.
Speaker A:And this is what it's like to be a citizen of the kingdom in a very practical kind of way.
Speaker A:So I think it's a little bit different.
Speaker A:In that case, we have this turn.
Speaker A:And that's what continues then throughout the passage we're going to look at today, which is really, what did I say?
Speaker A:Verses 5 through 15, something like that.
Speaker A:Matthew, chapter 5 or so.
Speaker A:This is 11 famous.
Speaker A:You are the salt of the earth and you are the light of the world.
Speaker A:What'd you say?
Speaker B:No, no, you're good.
Speaker B:Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:So I've mentioned this before, I think, but when we look at the Sermon on the Mount as a whole, we see Jesus saying that one, that his followers, citizens of the kingdom, are different from other groups.
Speaker A:So some of the examples he says, don't be like the hypocrites is one of the things that he says.
Speaker A:He says, don't be like the pagans.
Speaker A:And throughout all that, you're like, okay, I get that you don't want us to be hypocrites, you don't want us to be pagans.
Speaker A:That makes a ton of sense.
Speaker A:But here's where kind of the more controversial nature of this comes in.
Speaker A:He also says, don't be like the Pharisees.
Speaker A:And I think that's going to be very important for us to understand today.
Speaker A:In fact, if you look down just in Matthew, chapter 5, 20, do you have Matthew 5 open there in front of you?
Speaker A:Just read verse 20.
Speaker A:I think this is a key verse for understanding the Sermon on the Mount.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:Well, you know, I said that, but I can't.
Speaker B:There we go.
Speaker B:Pages separate here.
Speaker B:5, 20.
Speaker B:For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Speaker A:So don't be like the hypocrites, don't be like the pagans.
Speaker A:We get all that.
Speaker A:But then he says, don't be like the Pharisees.
Speaker A:And in fact, he says here, unless your righteousness surpasses the righteousness of the Pharisees.
Speaker A:And I always like to say the average person hearing this would have gone, how is that even possible?
Speaker A:How can my righteousness surpass the righteousness of the Pharisees?
Speaker A:Because they were seen as kind of the most trying to keep the law, the most conscientious about being God's people.
Speaker A:But this idea of your righteousness needs to surpass that.
Speaker A:I think Jesus is saying they're on the wrong track all the way around.
Speaker A:They've misunderstood and they've really missed something fundamental about what it means to be one of God's people.
Speaker A:And we've, we've talked about that before.
Speaker A:That it's not just a matter of, you know, I'm.
Speaker A:I'm part of the chosen race.
Speaker A:I'm a part of the, the chosen people.
Speaker A:But God very specifically has people that he's calling alongside of him.
Speaker A:What the kingdom is, is really him calling people alongside of him to work to transform the creation to be what it was intended to be in the first place.
Speaker A:And so I think he's saying that, you know, the Pharisees have kind of missed the boat all the way around.
Speaker A:And so this is the part that's, I think, a little bit more hard hitting.
Speaker A:I've been using this.
Speaker A:I think I've helped hold this up before.
Speaker A:But when I was teaching this in Sunday school, I used this book by Scott McKnight.
Speaker A:It's in the Story of God Bible Commentary series, and it's just on the Sermon on the Mount.
Speaker A:It's excellent.
Speaker A:I wanted to use one of his quotes because I think it really summarizes what I'm trying to say here.
Speaker A:He says this text, and he's talking specifically about what we're looking at today.
Speaker A:You are the salt of the earth.
Speaker A:You are the light of the world.
Speaker A:This text encourages us to reimagine our role in the world as God's agents of redemption.
Speaker A:So that's the way.
Speaker A:That's where we get kind of mixed up sometimes.
Speaker A:And that's, you know, Just to say it bluntly, that's how we're sometimes like Pharisees.
Speaker A:They thought of themselves as the recipients of God's salvation, of the recipients of God's redemption, rather than thinking about themselves as the agents of God's redemption.
Speaker A:In other words, God is bringing about his salvation.
Speaker A:God's bringing about his redemption through us.
Speaker A:So he's saying that this text invites us to consider what it means to be a person of the kingdom and our role in that.
Speaker A:So we could say the Sermon on the Mount invites us to consider what God is doing through his people.
Speaker A:What he intends us to be involved in is the way to think about it.
Speaker A:And I think that gives us kind of a new nuance here.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, don't we kind of.
Speaker A:This idea of, you're the salt of the earth.
Speaker A:I mean, we.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That's just become a phrase in English.
Speaker A:Oh, that's.
Speaker A:That person's real.
Speaker A:He's really a salt of the earth person, you know, or when we talk about being the light of the world or city set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Speaker A:You don't light a lamp and put it under a bushel.
Speaker A:We kind of go through that very quickly, and we understand that there are metaphors here, but I think we need to kind of unpack it a bit more and try to see what Jesus is really saying about how these metaphors inform what we're supposed to be doing as people of the kingdom.
Speaker A:That's what I think we're really going to kind of get at today.
Speaker A:So that having been said.
Speaker A:You want to read chapter five, verse 12 for me there, Ryan?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven.
Speaker B:For in the same way you went 12 or you went 13.
Speaker A:I want 13 is what I want.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker A:Yeah, Even in our notes, I have 12, but I meant 13.
Speaker B:You're good.
Speaker B:You are the salt of the earth.
Speaker B:But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again?
Speaker B:It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under foot.
Speaker A:We'll get to that last part, but I want to just focus on that first phrase.
Speaker A:You are the salt of the earth.
Speaker A:The interesting thing.
Speaker A:And you remember we had Jason Staples on at some point in the past, and he's really changed a lot of the way that I think about these things and really kind of brought some interesting ideas.
Speaker A:He kind of unpacked Matthew for us, man.
Speaker A:I'd love to hear him just really do the whole thing.
Speaker A:He just kind of quickly did it in, what, half an hour or 20 minutes or something like that.
Speaker A:But it's really interesting because salt of the earth, the word here is the he or the Hebrew, the Greek word, gay, gamma, eta.
Speaker A:And it means.
Speaker A:It could also be translated as land.
Speaker A:You are the salt of the land.
Speaker A:Which is an interesting thing to think about.
Speaker A:Again, if Jesus is saying here, you don't want to be like the Pharisees, right?
Speaker A:You don't want to be like these others who saw themselves as kind of the keepers of the land.
Speaker A:The ones who were the ones who made sure that Israel maintained its religious boundaries.
Speaker A:You know, they were the ones who were watching the borders and that kind of thing.
Speaker A:But he says, you are, to his followers, you are the salt of the earth.
Speaker A:Or it could be the land, if you remember.
Speaker A:You remember what Jason said about this when he kind of unpacked it for us?
Speaker B:I don't remember exactly what he says.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:He said, Matthew is really interesting because he uses these different things and every time.
Speaker A:I can't unsee it.
Speaker A:Now, I was teaching some stuff out of Matthew the other day, and it's.
Speaker A:It talks about one of the.
Speaker A:One of the.
Speaker A:The Gentile woman who can't comes to Jesus and asks for healing of his daughter.
Speaker A:And he says, oh, do you give, what sacred dogs, this whole thing?
Speaker A:You know, do you.
Speaker A:The dog.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker A:You give your, you know, the good food to the dogs.
Speaker B:The dogs, right?
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, that's what she says.
Speaker A:Even the dogs eat the scraps that come off the table.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But she's described in Matthew.
Speaker A:And I want you to think about this.
Speaker A:Think about the timeframe.
Speaker A:She's described as a Canaanite woman, which is fast.
Speaker A:I mean, Canaanite, right?
Speaker B:That's Old Testament.
Speaker A:That's kind of an anachronism, right?
Speaker A:So there's this whole thing going on in Matthew.
Speaker A:You know, he talks about when Jesus.
Speaker A:You might remember, he said when Jesus came back up from Egypt with his.
Speaker A:When Joseph and Mary came back, they were told to go back to the land of Israel, which is a really interesting phrase.
Speaker A:You know, there is no land of Israel at that point.
Speaker A:There's Judea, there's Galilee, and there's Samaria, but there is no, quote, unquote, land of Israel.
Speaker A:And so, you know, he talks about this whole thing, and you get to the very end of Matthew, chapter 28, and the very last thing we have is what we call the Great Commission, where he says, go and make disciples of all nations.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And the idea there is that earth There again, gay is used again.
Speaker A:And he says, it's kind of like one of those movies where you see the very last scene and it makes you go back and think about, how do I understand what's been happening this entire time?
Speaker A:And I think it's similar.
Speaker A:Here you are the salt of the earth.
Speaker A:It could be taken, but it could also be land.
Speaker A:And so it makes us wonder what he's doing here.
Speaker A:So when I say, how does this fit in with contrasting with what the Pharisees are doing?
Speaker A:They saw themselves as kind of the keepers of the land.
Speaker A:They're the ones who are doing what's going on.
Speaker A:Jesus says to his followers, no, you are in contrast, I think you are the salt of the land or the salt of the earth.
Speaker A:Now, here's where I have to ask you the question.
Speaker A:Because you're an expert in culinary affairs.
Speaker B:Oh, absolutely, yes.
Speaker A:Every time I was talking about you just the other day, I said, every time I go over to my friend's house, he always smokes something for me.
Speaker A:He smokes a brisket or a pork butt or something.
Speaker A:It's always really, really good.
Speaker A:When we think of salt in that kind of a context in our.
Speaker A:I ask the people this question all the time, and, you know, when I say, what salt for what, what answer do you think most people give me?
Speaker A:What do you think most people say?
Speaker B:Seasoning.
Speaker A:It's for.
Speaker A:It's for flavor, right?
Speaker B:We have, we keep taste.
Speaker A:We keep a salt shaker on our table, you know, and we, you know, I was, I was at breakfast today with some guys, and there was a salt shaker right there, setting in plain sight that any of us could use.
Speaker A:You know, there was a time where salt was much more valuable.
Speaker A:In fact, I said this.
Speaker A:This is one of my things that nobody else cares about.
Speaker A:But our word salary comes from that, that the, the Latin word for salt.
Speaker A:It comes from that idea of being paid in salt because it had that kind of value.
Speaker A:But salt's purpose was not primarily as a flavor during this period of time.
Speaker A:It was as a preservative before refrigerant, refrigeration, before, you know, any other way to keep.
Speaker A:Keep your, your food long term.
Speaker A:You could salt meat, right?
Speaker A:And it would, it would be preserved.
Speaker A:It's something that you can keep.
Speaker A:You could salt fish.
Speaker A:That was another thing that was a big thing in Galilee is, is salting fish in order to keep it for the long term so you don't have to put too fine a point on it and hope nobody's listening.
Speaker A:To this while they're eating their lunch.
Speaker A:But if it was to keep food from rotting is the idea, it was a preservative to keep decay from creeping in and sickness and illness and all that kind of thing.
Speaker A:So if you think about salt of the.
Speaker A:You are the salt of the earth here.
Speaker A:It's not so much.
Speaker A:And I've heard sermons preach that, oh, we're to give flavoring or to give seasoning and that kind of thing.
Speaker A:But I think the way that most people in this time that Jesus was speaking to would have thought of this would have, would have been that, that we are therefore to be the ones who are preserving.
Speaker A:We're the ones who are keeping things from decaying, right?
Speaker A:From, from, from rotting, if you think about.
Speaker A:From, from decay creeping in.
Speaker A:So that's the first thing I think we have to think about in understanding what Jesus is saying here.
Speaker A:And then there's this weird thing.
Speaker A:How can salt lose its saltiness?
Speaker A:You know, our salt is very pure.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's sodium chloride, you know, and if you, you know, if, if I gone, you know, it just leeches away.
Speaker A:But salt in this period of time would have come from one of two places in the region where Jesus is giving the sermon on the Mount.
Speaker A:He would have either been mined down in the Dead Sea, where it would have been been brought up from, from down in the south, or very near where he is in Galilee.
Speaker A:There was a salt mining operation or salt evaporating operation that goes back to this period of time where seawater was allowed to come into these big flat areas that they had worked out in the rock.
Speaker A:And the sun would then evaporate it and leave behind a residue.
Speaker A:Now, the difference between that kind of salt and the kind of salt that we have, the processed, you know, that, that kind of thing, pure, much more pure salt is it would have had other minerals in with it.
Speaker A:And so you could have the sodium chloride leach out of this material and leave behind like a white looking.
Speaker A:It would look like salt, but it wouldn't have acted like salt.
Speaker A:It wouldn't have worked in that kind of way.
Speaker A:So salt could lose its saltiness, right, and no longer be useful.
Speaker A:And he says then it just needs to be thrown out.
Speaker A:So the other interesting thing here when I talk about salt losing its saltiness is, is that verb, loses its saltiness.
Speaker A:You're not going to believe me when I tell you this, Ryan.
Speaker A:This is going to be one of those things that you're like, what the verb.
Speaker A:The verb is Moreno.
Speaker A:And I'll Tell you where we get a word from this.
Speaker A:We get our word moron from this.
Speaker A:Literally.
Speaker A:That word morino would mean something like becomes foolish.
Speaker A:When salt becomes foolish is kind of the way that we might think about that.
Speaker A:Doesn't make any sense.
Speaker A:So that's why we say, well, it becomes useless, it becomes meaningless.
Speaker A:But if you think about that idea of foolishness, there are lots of passages.
Speaker A:Well, there's one in the New Testament, but there's others in ancient writers that talk about salt and speech, that use those together.
Speaker A:And you want to have.
Speaker A:It talks about the connection with wisdom, for example.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:So you want to have speech that.
Speaker A:That contains wisdom.
Speaker A:I mentioned the New Testament.
Speaker A:Paul says this in Colossians 4.
Speaker A:6.
Speaker A:You want to read that?
Speaker B:Yeah, Colossians 4.
Speaker B:6.
Speaker B:Oh, actually, let me pull it up real quick.
Speaker A:It's right there, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think I have it in the notes if you want.
Speaker A:Just want to read it there.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, yeah, I've got you here.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So Colossians 4:6.
Speaker B:Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.
Speaker A:So this idea of having salt in your speech would, would have to do with wisdom or, you know, this, this idea of, of, of.
Speaker A:Of having that.
Speaker A:So, so that's what I think when he's saying that you are the salt of the earth.
Speaker A:If salt loses its saltiness, then it's not useful for anything except to be thrown out.
Speaker A:Tramp.
Speaker A:He's saying, here's the way I'm going to summarize this.
Speaker A:I would understand this to say that citizens of the kingdom have the responsibility of being the ones who keep focus on how things are supposed to be in the world.
Speaker A:They're the ones who are helping, working alongside God in keeping his creation the way that it was intended to be.
Speaker A:And so we become that preservative, keep it from decay with God's help.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And the other thing I'll mention, and Scott McKnight in his commentary talked about this.
Speaker A:Both salt and light we depend on.
Speaker A:It's not our wisdom, for example, it's not our speech that makes things right, it's Jesus.
Speaker A:So this has to do.
Speaker A:Both of these have to do with staying very close to him and staying in real close connection with Him.
Speaker A:So, so we have that responsibility as he gives us strength and as he gives us power in order to be the people who are bringing salt into this creation.
Speaker A:So I think that it's talking about our divine calling, what God is calling his people to do.
Speaker A:Is to be the ones who are in the world and who are continuing to bring our wisdom, you know, not our wisdom again, but God's wisdom to the people around us and helping keep things the way that God would intend them to be.
Speaker A:Thoughts on that or anything you want to.
Speaker A:You want to bring up?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, I think that's a good thought.
Speaker B:You know, I'm thinking about all the ways we derail that sometimes or, you know, that we can be.
Speaker B:Go like we're supposed to do this.
Speaker B:And I would say even current conversations on Christian nationalism that people bring up or something like that, where it's like, well, I'm trying to be the salt here.
Speaker B:We're trying to push those things.
Speaker B:So I know that's a negative way to look at this, but I also think it's a good reminder that we aren't supposed to be passive, you know, that there is a task here.
Speaker B:And I know we keep talking about this.
Speaker B:We've talked about this in several times, but there's a task force.
Speaker B:But it's also.
Speaker B:It's that balance of the task that we're called to and also not, you know, how do we balance that out in the world that we're in?
Speaker A:Yeah, I think that's a great idea.
Speaker A:And that's really what we're talking about.
Speaker A:We're talking.
Speaker A:So both things have to do.
Speaker A:Light of the world, salt of the earth.
Speaker A:Both of these have to do with the way that we relate to the society and the culture around us.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What relationship do we have with the world?
Speaker A:You know, goes back to Jesus in the upper room, you know, saying to his disciples, you're, you know, I'm not going to take you out of the world.
Speaker A:I'm leaving you in the world, but you are not to be of the world.
Speaker A:And I think losing its saltiness, that's kind of the idea.
Speaker A:If God's people, if the followers of Jesus just become like the rest of the world around us, then we're not providing any kind of a corrective to the way that things are.
Speaker A:We can't just follow the way that the rest of society is going.
Speaker A:We have to be willing to stand apart and to recognize what God is calling for us to do in redeeming his creation.
Speaker A:I'll go back to that quote.
Speaker A:I've got to scroll up to find it.
Speaker A:But the text encourages us to reimagine our role in the world as God's agents of redemption.
Speaker A:That's the way that McKnight put it.
Speaker A:And I thought that Was a, that was a really, really good way to put it.
Speaker A:Other thoughts about salt of the salt of the earth?
Speaker B:No, I mean, I have heard, you know, you reference, you know, it's always about saltiness and season the world and all that, Stu.
Speaker B:But you know, I think the, the, the image of preservation.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think, I mean it's an interesting thing.
Speaker B:And like what does it mean to preserve the world?
Speaker B:You know?
Speaker B:And what is, what does that look like?
Speaker B:And you know, I would say even in their context, but also in our context.
Speaker B:So those are just the things that are rolling through my mind.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, again, the, the Pharisees would, would separate themselves.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They wouldn't see their task as being involved in this.
Speaker A:It would be more of a, you know, I'm.
Speaker A:As long as I'm fine, then I don't have to be involved with, with others at all.
Speaker A:I think is, is kind of the idea.
Speaker A:Let's talk about light of the world then.
Speaker A:So when we see the image of light, it usually has to do with revealing in scripture, the idea of seeing clearly.
Speaker A:And I think that's the case, the case here.
Speaker A:But go ahead and read just, just verse 13 for us.
Speaker B:First of all, by the way, this is verse 14.
Speaker A:14.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You're one off, my friend, on all verse off today.
Speaker B:It's all fun.
Speaker B:You are the light of the world.
Speaker B:A town built on a hill cannot be hidden.
Speaker A:So light, like I said, a lot of times has to do with revealing.
Speaker A:But what do you think the idea of a city on a hill?
Speaker A:What do you think that, what does that point to?
Speaker A:You think if you think about the light of the world and a city on a hill.
Speaker B:A city on a hill is like the.
Speaker B:What you're supposed to be looking up to.
Speaker B:It's like, it's where you're supposed to be going.
Speaker B:I don't know, maybe it's like a lighthouse.
Speaker B:You know, it's like it's a beacon when you're in the dark world, like that's.
Speaker B:I'm going in the right direction.
Speaker B:I'm going to the.
Speaker A:So that's the other thing I think light can signal, right?
Speaker A:Can, can draw people.
Speaker A:Jerusalem was a city set on a hill, right?
Speaker A:It's the one that you can see from a distance.
Speaker A:It was up on a, on a high, high place.
Speaker A:The temple was on the highest point.
Speaker A:And so it was, it would draw people to it.
Speaker A:You know, people could see that light and they were, they were drawn to it.
Speaker A:Now you are the light of the world's interesting because we usually think about Jesus as the light of the.
Speaker A:The world.
Speaker A:And this, again, I think even more clearly than salt of the earth, points to the fact it's not our light, it's the reflected light of Jesus is what we're talking about.
Speaker A:His wisdom as we've received it, as we share it with others, as we are, you know, to use Paul's term, as we, you know, our speech is seasoned with salt.
Speaker A:As we, as we share the wisdom that God has revealed, then we are reflecting that light to other people.
Speaker A:Is the way that I would.
Speaker A:I would put this.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So light is revealing, it's signaling, and it's drawing people.
Speaker A:There's a lot of passages in the Old Testament that talk about this idea of the light.
Speaker A:And even, you know, Isaiah is replete with it.
Speaker A:It's just full of them.
Speaker A:You know, we think about even at Christmas time, where it talks about a light to the Gentiles is that is one of those phrases that we get this in Zachariah's prophecy in Luke, for example, that you.
Speaker A:You will be to Jesus, you'll be a light to the Gentiles.
Speaker A:And that's the way it's often used in the Old Testament, particular book of Isaiah.
Speaker A:So I have Isaiah 51:4 there for you if you want to read that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Listen to me, my people, hear me.
Speaker B:My nation instruction will go out from me.
Speaker B:My justice will become a light to the nations.
Speaker A:So the instruction will go out from me.
Speaker A:It'll be a light to the nations.
Speaker A:And Isaiah, you know, this image that it gives is that all the nations will come to Israel, will come to Jerusalem.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And they'll come, be gathered together in Jerusalem.
Speaker A:All the nations that have been scattered will be brought together.
Speaker A:So again, Israel, and let me say even more specifically, Jerusalem and the temple were supposed to be places that attracted others to it.
Speaker A:It was supposed to be a place where the nations would gather in order to hear about God.
Speaker A:And so this idea that you are the light of the world, you are that city that's set on a hill is kind of the idea you're signaling the wisdom of God.
Speaker A:You're revealing the truth about God and you're drawing other people.
Speaker A:In order to know more about that, go ahead with whatever verses are left.
Speaker A:Verse 15, I think it is.
Speaker A:Is that where we are now?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl.
Speaker B:Instead, they put it on its stand and it gives light to everyone in the house.
Speaker B:In the same way, let your light shine before others that they may see Your good deeds and glorify father.
Speaker A:I think that's 15 and 16, right?
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:So yeah, you.
Speaker A:You put it.
Speaker A:You put a lamp up so that it can shine its light, right?
Speaker A:So that it can reveal.
Speaker A:And so we're called to be speakers of Truth.
Speaker A:Again.
Speaker A:You talked about this idea of, you know, in our society.
Speaker A:How does this apply today?
Speaker A:And I was going to kind of talk about this at the very end, but you know, the.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That we need to be willing to speak truth in areas where.
Speaker A:Where, There.
Speaker A:There isn't truth, where, where falsehood is there.
Speaker A:And so we.
Speaker A:Way that reveals.
Speaker A:So let me ask you this.
Speaker A:This was just kind of a question.
Speaker A:When it talks about.
Speaker A:You might remember.
Speaker A:You remember as a kid singing this Little Light of Mine.
Speaker A:Did you ever sing that one?
Speaker B:Oh, yeah,
Speaker A:right.
Speaker A:It comes.
Speaker A:Comes from this passage, so it says, it says, so let your light shine before men so that they may see your good deeds.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And glorify your Father in heaven.
Speaker A:Something like that.
Speaker A:Is that what it says that I.
Speaker A:Did it get close?
Speaker B:So, yes, I was.
Speaker A:I wasn't looking at it, but anyway.
Speaker A:So what do you think it means to.
Speaker A:To shine our light?
Speaker A:And how does it connect with good deeds, would you say?
Speaker A:What, what's your thoughts on that?
Speaker A:What does it mean for us?
Speaker A:How do we.
Speaker A:How do we shine our light or let our light shine?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker A:Yeah, you know, if you don't, I want to put you on the spot.
Speaker B:No, no, I mean, like, how do we let our light shine?
Speaker B:I think, you know, I think it's being unashamed of something like that and, you know, being, you know, not.
Speaker B:Not being timid about your faith, you
Speaker A:know, and living it out, covering it up.
Speaker B:Not, not covering up, living out your faith, not making it a.
Speaker B:An addition to your life, but it, you know, it.
Speaker B:It is your life, how you live your life.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's central.
Speaker B:So wherever you go, whatever you do, you know you're going to be casting a light.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker A:It's speaking truthfully about things, you know, being willing, like you said, having the courage to step up and speak these kind of things.
Speaker A:So we let our light shine.
Speaker A:It talks about our good deeds.
Speaker A:And another big thing.
Speaker A:I'll bring up McKnight again.
Speaker A:He talks a lot about the way that our.
Speaker A:And I want to say more about this in a moment.
Speaker A:The way in which our lack of a paternal, let's call it witness.
Speaker A:Our witness can be diminished.
Speaker A:Our light can be diminished when we again begin to adopt just, Just the Same thoughts as everyone else, the same, you know, life as everyone else, rather than speaking truth, even sometimes when they're hard truths, when they're things that people don't necessarily want to hear.
Speaker A:You know, Paul's.
Speaker A:I was just thinking in speaking in season and out of season, that kind of thing.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So I think, you know, it's.
Speaker A:It's a.
Speaker A:It, like you said, it's a.
Speaker A:It's a boldness.
Speaker A:It's a matter of being.
Speaker A:Being willing to speak.
Speaker A:But it talks about our good deeds as well.
Speaker A:And that's where I'm talking about.
Speaker A:I don't think it's just a matter of us doing good things.
Speaker A:Right, but it's.
Speaker A:It's making sure that our.
Speaker A:You said that Christianity is central, our following Jesus, essential to our life.
Speaker A:That it's not just something we do on the side.
Speaker A:It's not just a matter of, oh, I better do these good deeds to make up for all my bad deeds, but it's.
Speaker A:It's having our life aligned with the life of Jesus so that we are being transformed more and more into his image.
Speaker A:And then we can speak his truth and we can be the salt.
Speaker A:I'm going to say one more thing that I found interesting.
Speaker A:Again, this is McKnight and Jason Staples book makes me think about this a lot.
Speaker A:McKnight suggests that this is really two missions.
Speaker A:It's the mission to the Jewish people, to the people of Israel or the Jewish people, and then it's also a mission to the nations.
Speaker A:So he would say that the salt of the land is focused upon the Jewish people, that Jesus is gathering them and teaching them to be what they were intended to be from the beginning.
Speaker A:Yeah, in the land and then the light of the world.
Speaker A:In keeping with that Old Testament teaching, we only gave you one passage from Isaiah, but there are lots of others that talk about that this is going to be a light to the Gentile, kind of a beacon might be a way to think about it as you draw the Gentiles to become a part of God's people.
Speaker A:And so he sees it.
Speaker A:It's missional for sure, but he sees it as kind of in that way.
Speaker A:And he thinks that's the way the original audience would have understood it.
Speaker A:And when I read that in the past, I would have been like, oh, that's interesting.
Speaker A:But, you know, after reading Staples book, it's pretty cool, pretty interesting and convincing that.
Speaker A:That I think I would have thought in this idea of kind of a dual mission.
Speaker A:So what we're gonna say, we're gonna.
Speaker B:Well, it's just, you know, as you think about that, just the, the.
Speaker B:You are the salt of the earth could also be your salt of the land.
Speaker B:You know, it's just that there's a, you know, when, when we see the land, you know, could there be something very specific going on there with that?
Speaker B:So, no, I think that's.
Speaker B:I, I didn't recall that he had said that to us, but.
Speaker B:Or I'd read that, but.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's a really interesting insight to see that.
Speaker B:That development there.
Speaker A:I'm really intrigued by this whole idea that Matthew, like, like Matthew 28.
Speaker A:Because it is kind of interesting that that's the, that's the way he ends his book, isn't it, with the Great Commission, with, with Matthew 28.
Speaker A:I, I kind of butchered it before, but let me, Let me go and just read that quickly.
Speaker A:It's just a very interesting way for him to end his book.
Speaker A:There's no more.
Speaker A:I mean, he ends with the words of Jesus.
Speaker A:There's no more narration after that.
Speaker A:There's no kind of final word or anything.
Speaker A:Jesus came and said to them, verse 18.
Speaker A:This is chapter 28 of Matthew.
Speaker A:All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Speaker A:Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything I commanded you, and surely I will be with you always to the very end of the age.
Speaker A:And so he says, you know, when he talks about making disciples of all nations, he says that kind of makes you then go back and think, okay, what did he mean by earth?
Speaker A:You know, is this earth or land?
Speaker A:You know, throughout the entire Gospel?
Speaker B:Because he doesn't say, you're this, you're the salt of all.
Speaker B:All the, all the nations.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Fear to.
Speaker A:Salt of the earth.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so, So I think it's an interesting, Interesting insight.
Speaker A:And again, it's kind of.
Speaker A:It'd be really neat to see him flesh that out, or if he's not going to.
Speaker A:Somebody flesh that out.
Speaker A:I think there's a really interesting book to be written in that that would be.
Speaker A:Would be helpful in understanding Matthew's primary purpose.
Speaker A:Anything else on that before that?
Speaker A:I wanted to finish with one more.
Speaker A:One more passage.
Speaker A:This is in Philippians.
Speaker A:This is in Philippians Chapter two.
Speaker A:And it's that idea of shining like light.
Speaker A:And then there's an Old Testament.
Speaker A:I think he's referring to this Old Testament passage in Daniel 12.
Speaker A:So why don't you pull up Daniel 12, 1 4, which is a really weird kind of passage, actually.
Speaker A:You read Philippians 2.
Speaker A:Have you already started looking at Daniel?
Speaker A:And then I'll.
Speaker B:I've already got that.
Speaker A:First I'll walk us through Daniel 12.
Speaker A:You read Philippians 2, 12, 16 for me.
Speaker B:All right, give me just a second here.
Speaker B:Philippians 2:12.
Speaker A:All right, I'm probably going to interrupt you a couple of times just to warn you.
Speaker B:What's that?
Speaker B:You're going to interrupt me?
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God.
Speaker A:So we've talked about this passage before.
Speaker A:It's all Yalls, salvation, right?
Speaker A:You need to work out your salvation.
Speaker A:And a lot of our discussions on the meaning of salvation and the time of salvation, everything, I think, begins with a misunderstanding of what we mean by salvation.
Speaker A:As I've said before, we think about it very individualistically.
Speaker A:We think about it only in terms of forgiveness of sins and this kind of thing.
Speaker A:What I'm thinking about now is more like, well, you know, the idea of being a part of this movement, right, Giving our allegiance to the King, and then being willing to be a part of this ongoing mission of salvation.
Speaker A:I used to say this a long time ago to my students, is that our view of salvation is too small.
Speaker A:In the Bible, salvation is a restoration of the entire universe is the way that I would put it.
Speaker A:And so we are taken up in that as we come to Christ, we are taken up into that and we become a part of that.
Speaker A:So working out your salvation is a problem text.
Speaker A:If you just see salvation as this kind of state about me as an individual, but if you see it as something that God is calling us to as a people, and we're, again, not to belabor McKnight's phrase, but if we're becoming agents of this redemption in the world, then it makes perfect sense that we are to continue we're obeying.
Speaker A:I mean, part of it is what I was talking about.
Speaker A:It's what Jesus says, if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be salty?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:If we're not being obedient to the word of God, then how can we be the agents of change in the world if we're no different than.
Speaker A:Than the rest of the world?
Speaker A:So then it goes on.
Speaker A:Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt and
Speaker B:give you that interjection.
Speaker B:For it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
Speaker B:Do everything without grumbling or arguing so that you may become blameless and pure children of God without fault, in a warped and crooked generation.
Speaker B:Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky as you hold firmly to the word of life.
Speaker B:And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain.
Speaker A:So you see, the whole idea here is that you're in the middle of this wicked and crooked generation and you're shining like stars.
Speaker A:So you're drawing people to yourself.
Speaker A:Again, Paul is saying, I mean, what would it mean for his labor to be in vain?
Speaker A:It would be that they are not carrying on the same mission, the same work that he has begun.
Speaker A:I mean, you have to read this whole passage differently.
Speaker A:I think even where it talks about God, it's God who works in you to will and act according to fulfill his purpose, right?
Speaker A:So he's working in his people and among his people in order to accomplish his purpose.
Speaker A:So let's go back to the Sermon on the Mount.
Speaker A:I think what Jesus is saying here is that you have to be, you know, the followers.
Speaker A:You're my followers.
Speaker A:You are this people that God has desired from the beginning, who are going to be carrying forth this message of redemption and who are going to transform not only this land, but also the entire, all the nations.
Speaker A:Let's use the language there.
Speaker A:The entire world.
Speaker A:You're going to be a light for the world, that you're going to draw people to yourself.
Speaker A:You're going to shine like stars, right?
Speaker A:That's going to draw these people to you.
Speaker A:And Paul understands his mission in keeping with that.
Speaker A:That's the way I would understand that.
Speaker A:Thoughts on that?
Speaker A:Any comments or questions?
Speaker B:I don't think I've got any comments or questions on that one.
Speaker B:I mean, it makes sense
Speaker A:back in.
Speaker A:I think Paul's referring to Daniel chapter 12 here with this idea of shining like stars.
Speaker A:There's not many times we see that phrase.
Speaker A:And I know it's apocalyptic literature.
Speaker A:Nothing like summarizing things by going to apocalyptic literature.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:But this is Daniel 12:1:4.
Speaker A:It says that time, Michael, the great prince who protects your people will arise.
Speaker A:There will be a time of distress, such as not as happened from the beginning of nations until then, but at that time your people, everyone whose name is found written in the book, will be delivered.
Speaker A:We could use the word saved there, right?
Speaker A:Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Speaker A:But then look at verse three.
Speaker A:Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.
Speaker A:Do you see that?
Speaker A:Those who lead many to righteousness will shine like stars forever and ever.
Speaker A:But you, Daniel, roll up the seal of the words of the scroll until the time of the end, many will go here and there to increase knowledge.
Speaker A:So I think Paul is referring to this in Philippians.
Speaker A:He's pulling on that Daniel passage and talking about this idea of shining in order to draw people again to God.
Speaker A:So my final thought on this is this, and I've said this in different ways before, but the tragedy of when Christians are, I say two things here.
Speaker A:Distracted, right?
Speaker A:We become so easily distracted.
Speaker A:You mentioned earlier, Christian nationalism or whatever it is that can draw us away from the primary, from the number, a number one purpose for which we have been called, right?
Speaker A:We were so easily distracted by all these other things.
Speaker A:Or when we have a diminished witness like salt losing its saltiness, the real tragedy isn't in our lives, right?
Speaker A:It's really in that we're failing to accomplish our true purpose, which means that there are going to be those around us who are affected, those who we should be shining light to, being wisdom to, you know, being salt to preserve in the midst of decay.
Speaker A:You know, they're the ones who suffer is not exactly the word I want to use, but who are going to be affected by our failure to live out, you know, our calling.
Speaker A:And so that's kind of my concern.
Speaker A:I think where we need to kind of finish up, we have, we have a responsibility to make sure that we are, we are absolutely living, living out that calling in a very full way.
Speaker A:So final thoughts?
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, this is, you know, I, I'm in a revelation class right now, and, you know, I think about the, those letters to the churches, you know, how they, how, how they are to maintain their witness.
Speaker B:You know, it's kind of this, this idea of maintaining.
Speaker B:Don'.
Speaker B:Some of you, like you're lukewarm, you know, in one of the churches are lukewarm.
Speaker B:You know, they're not, they're not a beacon.
Speaker B:They're not a city on a hill.
Speaker B:They're not salt.
Speaker B:You know, they're just like, you're just like everything else.
Speaker B:And that this is a constant.
Speaker B:You know, I think there's vigilance that, you know, that is required of that.
Speaker B:And all those letters to the church at the end of Revelation talk about if you persevere in this, you will be victorious.
Speaker B:And that is the call and that is what Jesus is calling us to here is like, like this message of you have a role to play in this.
Speaker B:And I know for some it's like, wait, I thought God did all of this?
Speaker B:And it's like, well, yes, yes, but we are the first fruits of the kingdom, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:He allows us an opportunity to be involved in this is what it comes down to.
Speaker A:He gives us that privilege and calls us alongside of him.
Speaker A:We have to be on mission is I guess is what I'm, what I'm trying to say.
Speaker A:That's, that's our response.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think it's, it's always, it's always the question and it's always, you know, when we think about what should I be doing as a Christian.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, you should be gathering on a Sunday.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:But there's more, there's more, you know, like, it's like that is part of the.
Speaker B:We've talked about this before.
Speaker B:There is no separation between the secular and the sacred.
Speaker B:And so like, you know, it's your secular life is your sacred life as well, you know that there is no.
Speaker B:So your light has to shine in there.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's, that's where that image is.
Speaker A:So good being salt in the places where, where you're called to be, you may be the only one who's, who's kind of preserving, if you will, that environment.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it doesn't mean being salt is fun either.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Or good.
Speaker A:No, it's a very difficult task.
Speaker A:There's no question.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean even if we only look at what Jesus is calling them to, if we believe that first part with the salt is a directly Jewish, very Jewish to those people, them living in a way that's counter to the Pharisaical system and the established first century Palestine position.
Speaker B:Like, yeah, even there it's going to be painful to be that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's a reminder that God's people have consistently, and I'm saying throughout the entire scriptures and, and through history we have consist consistently forgotten our, our mission, our purpose from time to time.
Speaker A:And, and like you said, vigilance.
Speaker A:I like that word.
Speaker A:We have to constantly be reminded of it, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:And it requires something of a sacrifice.
Speaker B:Some might even say absolutely.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, Brian, this is great.
Speaker B:I appreciate we're going through this and you know, it's always good to be reminded and look maybe again afresh at some of these things that we've probably read many times before, you know, like this is Matthew 5, 6, and 7, and the Sermon on the Mount is probably a go to for a lot of people or grew up with it.
Speaker B:But to go back and look at it again and evaluate some of those things that are in there and some of that language and what it might be saying for us today.
Speaker B:So appreciate it very much.
Speaker A:Sounds good.
Speaker A:Remember.
Speaker A:All right, you can find us and.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What are we gonna say?
Speaker B:Yeah, we're gonna try.
Speaker B:We're gonna.
Speaker B:We're not gonna wait this long next time.
Speaker A:I was gonna say.
Speaker A:I was gonna say we'll either talk to you next week or maybe next year.
Speaker B:No, that's not.
Speaker A:Somewhere between.
Speaker B:Well, we've talked about trying to do it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Every other week, maybe, something like that.
Speaker B:Yeah, I've got.
Speaker B:I've got a crazy week this next week.
Speaker B:But we'll get something to you here soon.
Speaker B:So appreciate you, Brian, and we'll chat again soon.
Speaker A:All right, Talk to you later.
Speaker A:Bye.
